I sure learned a lot on today’s show. Sadly, I learned that when we (the privileged white people) dare to talk about equal rights for all we’re just talking about white people.
When I say that I’ve fought alongside people of color, the LGBTQ community and other groups working towards a better life, it’s just my “white feminism™” rearing its ugly head.
When I say that not everything in life is seen through the lens of race, I’m told that’s why I’m the problem.
Apparently, I just don’t understand what it’s like to be Black in America. That’s the first correct assumption any of the idiots who are castigating me on social media today has said. I don’t.
But God forbid I bring up my background as a person of Jewish heritage and the problems my forebears faced, I’m despicable and worse!
Never mind the fact that the only sentence about my grandparents fleeing the Holocaust was written in a private email to Elon James White in an attempt at dialog instead of shit-stirring, which he chose to publish on his blog instead of talking with me about! (His defense was that he didn’t name me as the person who wrote that line. Still cowardice to me.)
I also invited him on my show to discuss the disconnect in our lines of reasoning, only to be rebuffed. His response was that I should have a Woman of Color on instead.
So, his co-host on his radio show “This Week in Blackness” (way to make white people feel welcome there, btw), Imani Gandy was kind enough to join me. I thought we had a good, spirited discussion.
Sadly, she chose to go on Twitter and misrepresent what I said. But that’s how this whole episode is playing out.
I feel as if I’m supposed to apologize for being born white, but even that wouldn’t satisfy the people who are excoriating me today. I shall attempt to bite my tongue and stay off Twitter, and keep doing what I do.
Because nothing I do or say can convince them that I have good intentions. And that’s heartbreakingly sad.
Since Elon James White chose to publish and Tweet out portions of our email exchange, I figured I’d post the entire thing here. As it was three emails (the original one I sent to him, his response, and my response to that), I’ve color-coded the text with my original email in black type italics, Elon James White’s responses in blue, my second response in pink.
Keep in mind that, rather than respond to my second email, he chose to post some of what I wrote on his blog, outraged that I’d dare to invoke my ancestors’ struggles as Jews during the Holocaust. I guess I’m not allowed to do that.
Hi Elon,
I’m guessing you don’t remember me. You’ve been on my show a few times, and we’ve met and shared drinks a few other times. We were on the Ma’am. Not necessary. My name is Nicole. I’m familiar with you who you are and I do recall speaking on your show a few years ago. None of that would change the commentary I made this morning. Out of professional courtesy I will address your email as clearly as I can. Wasn’t sure that you knew who I was as you referred to me as Julianna Forlano’s ‘friend’ and claimed no understanding that she was on my radio show. I’m a woman and a feminist. I never considered color as part of my being a feminist. I always thought the issues we feminists fought for were inclusive of ALL women. That’s wonderful. For you. But as many WoC have noted, spoken about, written about and constantly deal with regularly, Feminism is not all inclusive. I’m not saying anything here controversial or ground breaking. And whether you consider something to be the case or not does not affect the the reality and experiences of WoC who deal with it directly. And as I have spoken and written about, I’m not my sister’s keeper. I know many, many white women who’ve done nothing to incur the ugliness and vitriol that I was subject to this morning by simply pointing out what Patricia Arquette said, not what she omitted. I’m sure you’ve experienced people projecting their insecurities and biases on you because of who they perceived you to be. Not everyone parses their words so carefully as to offend no one. Imagine having just won the biggest award or recognition of your art possible. Imagine wanting to make a statement about women’s rights – using the phrase ALL WOMEN over and over again only to have others assume what you meant. You seemed surprised that I didn’t know the term “erased intersection” – it sounds like doublespeak to me. I’ve done shows on the ERA, the fact that the LGBTQ movement and civil rights movement have made huge strides, while the ERA sit unratified. I’ve suggested that all these groups who came together to help advance the struggles of all those people (yes, even those who fit in more than one category) come together to help ratify the ERA. I guess that makes me worthy of your ire too? I probably never stopped down to say “that includes the LBGTQ women and women of color too” – it was implied in all I said. I’ve spoken out over the years on a number of issues – some dealing with gender issues, some with religion, some with race, most with inequality and the general unfairness in life. Never, ever, when speaking on behalf of one group – especially in the heat of the moment or when I’ve had limited time in which to make a point – did I stop down to say, “The group I’m talking about is struggling, but this sub section of the group has it even worse.” I have to ask ma’am, who asked for that? The issue that I, and many others, pointed out wasn’t the need to drill down and speak of each individualized group. The commentary about PoC and LGBTQ folks needing to step up and speak out for Women was the issue. Some PoC are Women. Some LGBTQ are Women. The call for these groups to help “Women” as if they aren’t already doing that because they are in fact, women already, is problematic and speaks to a similar theme found through out conversations around feminism. Women defaults to White Cis-Women. I understand you don’t think it does but language, policies, framing all paints this picture which is why so many WoC have spoken out against this and have critiqued Feminism as much as they have. And the idea that LGBTQ and PoC need to step up and help like White Women have helped us? That’s why we should do that? You don’t see how this framing is problematic? And what’s wrong with asking those people to step up in the issue of pay equity and passing an Equal Right Amendment? You’re the one drawing the lines of separation. Do you not see that? I get that African Americans have been persecuted and have had a rough ride through history. I’m of Jewish descent. Shall I tell you the stories my grandparents told me? Do I think that every injustice has to do with the fact that my forebears were targeted by Hitler? Not for a second. This is incredibly insulting. I’m not even sure what this means. Are you saying Black folks are blaming race too much? Are you saying that we bring up slavery too much? I’m not sure of the point of writing these words at all. And I’ve been insulted all day by people on Twitter telling me that women’s rights is code for “white women’s right”. Bullshit. I’m saying we all have our own crosses to bear. You have your struggles and I have mine. Some are because I’m a woman, some are because I’m Jewish. Some are because I’m now 55 years old so “unattractive” and some because I’m overweight.. and some because some people just don’t like me and other reasons I’m not privy to. But to have people who’ve never even heard of me call me a bigot or tell me what I’m thinking and that I’m motivated by “white privilege” or “White feminism” is not only insulting, but hateful and, yes racist. I do host a daily radio show. I’ve been in radio for over 30 years. I was on Air America and moved online when the network went under and have been struggling to keep doing what I do for the past five years. I don’t get a free ride because I’m a “white woman”. I don’t get a free ride at all. 1) Who said you get a free ride? 2) Are you denying that you benefit from White Privilege? 3) Are you saying that your experience is the same as Black Women, who are dealing at the intersection of race and gender? What about the gay black woman? The attacks I was subject to on Twitter today were completely out of line and uncalled for. I’ve lived my life in a caring, loving way, and brought none of this nastiness on myself. And for complete strangers to come into my Twitter stream, telling me what I think and how I act – all antithetical to everything I stand for – really sucks. I invited you on my show to discuss this failure to communicate – because that’s what it is. You and your followers who’ve been attacking me on Twitter all day have just assumed that Patricia Arquette was consciously excluding women of color and/or LGBTQ is ridiculous. I’ve assumed nothing. I responded to the words she actually said. I didn’t call her names, imply what she meant or any of that. The issue seems to be that many folks believe the benefit of the doubt should be given because obviously Arquette means well. That she should be above critique. That’s ridiculous. You’ve inserted words like “consciously” when a lot of the points made here is that it ISNT conscious and that’s the problem. This line of thought is normal and this framing considered reasonable. As opposed to simply reading and absorbing those explaining exactly what the issue is in great detail you wanted it explained to you. This is not the responsibility of PoC. Just like I don’t believe it is your responsibility as a woman to explain things to me if my male privilege is blocking me from understanding the argument you’re making. If you were kind enough to explain it to me I’d appreciate it, because many Women have taken that time with me. But it’s not owed to me. It is not their responsibility. She didn’t say those groups were mutually exclusive and, sorry, it’s our role as reasonable people to consider intent. I know how badly I’m feeling today after all the hatred thrown my way. She just had her biggest career-high of her life, and she’s being excoriated for thought crimes. How about trying to reach out for clarification? No, instead, you throw out terms like “erased intersection”. How about speaking in plain English. Yes I’m disappointed – as a fan and somewhat colleague – that you seem more intent on escalating the nastiness rather than engaging in dialogue. That’s what I’m trying to do. Imani Gandy is coming on my show tomorrow. She and I have had differences in the past. But I have no doubt we can try to hear each other out tomorrow and understand that we’re on the same side. How about, instead of crucifying her because she said what she was trying to say clumsily, you try to help her say it more eloquently? Maybe that doesn’t fit in This Week in Blackness? Are we not black enough? (And yes, that was meant to be incendiary, because I know that’s not who you are….) And that’s it. Now I shall disengage from Twitter where I’m apparently everything that’s wrong with the evil white woman. See you tomorrow, radio or not.
If you think I’m wrong, then come on my show and say so.
[…] My conversation with [Nicole Sandler] got me thinking about the conversations that I have with white women about privilege and why it tends to devolve into shenanigans and feelings of ill-will (as it unfortunately has with Nicole). […]
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[…] particular note was the recent ugliness between Nicole Sandler and Elon James White, after Sandler defended Arquette, only to be accused of being complicit in the […]
PLEASE NOTE: No comment has been “cut” or rejected. We’ve turned on Moderator Approval function until Nicole can get to these. She’s at an appointment and can’t read or respond for awhile. And the Moderate Comments function applies to all posts, not just this one.
Actually, I’m back now. And I have deleted some comments. I’m sick of being a punching bag. I heard the messages that many have posted here, loudly and clearly. But it’s my website, and I don’t have to publish attacks on my character here. They will not be permitted.
You should consider learning about intersectionality instead of feeling sorry for your privileged self. Google it. Learn something.
Okay, I turned the comments back on. If you need time to go through any more, just change the setting back to Moderate. Glad you deleted, some were just mean, not productive.
Disqus dumped my perfectly written comment (no really, it was beautiful), lemme try again…
Nicole, you’ve made a good decision to step away from twitter right now. I’ve been yelled at on twitter (minimally) because I said something with the best of intentions that came out completely backward, and it’s not pleasant. I would ask that you please use this time away to LISTEN and learn. Read up on the twitter timelines, blogs, and columns from the many smart women of color on twitter. I say this because I was in your place once.
I thought that because I had worked in the student lobby and the state legislature within the Progressive community that I had a good understanding of all of feminism and I was very, very wrong. Thankfully, despite all the vitriol floating around, some women on twitter pointed me in the right direction and expanded my knowledge base. I’m still not completely versed, I can’t be because my skin color protects me from the experiences that many women have (yes, as a mixed woman I have certain issues, but my skin is pale, my mother is White, and I KNOW that has given me my fair share of privilege in my life). But, I have let go of my defensiveness and learned to listen, because I cannot call someone my sister if I have my hand over her mouth, right?
#YesAllWomen can take a few minutes to learn about the experiences/issues of other women, especially women whose lives are very different from our own.
Disqus did not dump this comment. It was held for moderation.
I wasn’t referring to this comment, I was referring to the one I wrote over an hour ago. I’m not an idiot, I know what moderation is, I can read the little blue line that says a comment in is the moderation queue. I wrote a comment, tried to log in with my twitter account, poof comment gone. Created a new disqus account instead.
Okay, I never called you an idiot, for one. And second, many people (believe it or not) don’t see that blue line. I’ve run blogs for years, and it never ceases to amaze me. My bad for trying to politely explain what happened.
I believe people don’t see the moderation line, but is it possible to edit a comment awaiting moderation? If not, then I could not have written that first sentence unless a precious entry had been lost, right?
Ugh, this avatar problem is distracting as hell.
I know. I don’t understand the avi thing at all. Bugs the hell out of me. No idea about editing, sorry.
If you take out the racial terms and insert gender instead this “Feminist” sounds a lot like men who deny sexism and male privilege’s existance. Very poor showing.
equal wages are an issue for all women. why does this man have the right to talk for women? I suppose he thinks he speaks for all Black women. He doesn’t. Imo a woman can speak about feminism and men should shut up and listen. Same goes for race. Certainly the same goes to victims of the holocaust and the Jewish victims of slavery in Eastern Europe, Babylon and Egypt. It’s not only Black people who have been hurt. What is this victim jealousy about? Personally, I work for women’s rights and never noticed 6 million Black people being murdered in the USA. We have it bad, but never as bad as the Jews.
“I also invited him on my show to discuss the disconnect in our lines of
reasoning, only to be rebuffed. His response was that I should have a
Woman of Color on instead.”
She came on and agreed with him and you don’t wanna talk to her or about anymore. Why is that?
She Nicole this person is on your side. This it is the time for self reflection
I see where you’re coming from Nicole, but allow me a GENTLE, innocent pushback. I didn’t understand white privilege either until someone offered this example:
Imagine a footrace with various people at the starting line, the gun goes off:
Out of the blocks first is the white man
…15 seconds late the white woman
…15 seconds later the black man
…15 seconds late the hispanic man
…10 seconds later the black woman
…10 seconds later the hispanic woman
You get the picture, also include LGTBQ individuals, various citizenship class etc.
As racers they are going full force, panting, running as fast they can.
As a white woman you are disadvantaged relative to the white man, but in a place of advantage compared to the other groups. You’re hard working, putting in as much work but because of that time delay the odds are staggered. Think of that 15 second delay between you and the white man as wage discrimination, sexism. Think of the other gaps as racism, housing discrimination. It doesn’t matter how hard YOU work the RACE is rigged. You are still hardworking you are still smart and fast but the system has created a hierarchy in which you benefit.
White privilege allows you to drive down a highway in BMW (likely) without cops assuming you are a drug dealer. White privilege allows you to visit Arizona without the sheriff assuming you are undocumented. These are just examples, how this shows up in your real life may be different. Just think about it, after all this over, when the trolls have stopped harassing you. Read this again, and listen to Elon’s words and list to your show with Imani. And realize nobody is saying YOU are a racist or wrong, but the race is.
Please stop this before you embarrass yourself any further.
Ha, is it just me, or does this posted exchange highlight how unreasonable, insulting and dismissive Ms. Sandler is?
This post will serve as a perfect example of why ‘progress’ usually stalls when it extends outside of the white American experience.
If you want to know why nobody has any sympathy for you at this point, it’s because you’ve been gaslighting from the start, INSISTING you know better and when cornered, putting the onus of proof on the very people you were combative with from the first.
And this is why twelve year olds shouldn’t have radio shows. You’re a disgrace to political progressivism and the ONLY thing I’ve heard out of you from the start is in support of the status quo.
Why…. would you publish this?!?!!?
You are denying that you benefit from white privilege. You are therefore part of the problem. Full stop.
Oh, joy white privilege. The best part is in the ongoing engagement with a cisgender Black man, and telling him that he is starting a race war (love it when folks lob rhetorical bombs and then run away, classic white woman aggression tactic) when many, many, many queer afab Black women and transgender women of color could school her. But thanks Elon for taking this on for the team, because if one of us, queer Black women started in, she’d end up drowning in white woman tears.
This is disgusting. You’ve taken the outcry over the erasure of women of color and made it about yourself. You pick fights with black people on Twitter and then cry scared white woman when they defend themselves. THEN you try to trump a black person by bringing up The Holocaust which has nothing to do with the topic. YOU are part of the problem. Quit your whining, open your eyes, open your ears and close your mouth. Your privilege is showing out.
For some reason, my avi is showing up on gem’s comment. Is it just me? In any case, gem wrote this, not me.
Disqus does that sometimes.
Ah, thanks! I think it did happen once before, but now I know it’s a Disqus thing. 🙂
This post sounds precisely the same to me as the more knee jerk defensive posts I’ve read by some men who refuse to see their male privilege. Us white feminists (a term that is technically accurate so really should not cause discomfort or offense) cannot have any ground to stand on in encouraging men to go through the often uncomfortable process of recognizing their privilege, while refusing to recognize our own. The current generation of feminists has built on the work of their predecessors and are now focused on intersectionality – this is a paradigm shift that we should embrace. Yes, all women, including white women, have a lot of barriers yet to overcome – but it’s time for white women to stop being blind to our own privileged position within the larger tent of feminism. Without honest self reflection, every movement and -ism runs the risk of fossilization. This kind of work is never finished, which means neither is the work of honestly critiquing and improving our understanding of what feminism and social justice mean.
Nicole… I’m amazed… It seems that EVERYONE, (everyone black that is) is mis-quoting, or mis-stating or mis-characterizing you…. How sad they are…. or MAYBE its you?…
Like Granddad used to say… “If everyone you know is calling you a Jackass, Maybe you should buy a saddle.”
privilege is, by definition, invisible to the privileged. it’s only understood when taken away and that has to be done by those who CAN see it.
“I am denying that I benefit from White Privilege. Care to tell me how I benefit from anything right now other than my own hard work, cuz I’m trying really hard to make it through to the end of each day.”
I don’t know your life. But if you came from a white middle class family in America, you almost certainly benefitted in a number of ways. The GI Bill may have educated your ancestors (while leaving black Americans out). Your family may have gotten housing loans that black families weren’t eligible for, or been able to live in neighborhoods that black families were redlined out of. If there are people in your family who ever did anything against the law, such as doing illegal drugs or getting into a fight at school, they were much less likely to have their lives ruined by a run-in with the criminal justice system. Your family didn’t have wealth stolen from them, for generations, due to their skin color. None of this is an attack on you! None of it means you personally did anything wrong. But these are just a few of the ways in which America has been set up to benefit white people at the expense of black people.
Even if you didn’t come from a middle class family, even if you’re poor, you benefit from white privilege in the sense that if you were a black woman in the same situation, you would be facing an extra barrier. That shouldn’t be a controversial statement among people who say they’re for equality.
Jens, that was a well-worded explanation. Thank you for that, and for your civility. I think emotions too often get in the way, preventing effective communication and understanding. The more we listen, the more open we are to another PoV, the more we can come together, even if we disagree. Some of the vitriol that’s come Nicole’s way is making it more, not less, difficult for her to have a healthy exchange of ideas. While I empathize with passion (I often let mine get the better of me), it is more productive to try to be reasonable, no matter which “side” you’re on. I’m hoping we can all get on the same side, because we all seem to have similar goals. So again, thanks for contributing here in Comments.
I don’t blame people for having emotional reactions or being passionate. Hell, one of the ways my white privilege comes into play here is that I have the luxury of being a bit more … I don’t know, detached? This stuff doesn’t hit me in the face every day the way it does for a lot of the people who’ve been responding.
I applaud passion. I just don’t think vitriol is the way to express disagreement.
And not all disagreement — not even all anger! — is vitriol.
That was my point exactly. As I said, passion and communication are a positive, nastiness not so much.
Funny you denounce vitriol when you’re the one who accused someone else of attempting to start a race war. Especially after you invoked the Holocaust as a defense for your nonsense.
Psst! I’m not Nicole, I’m Laffy. I haven’t accused anyone of anything, nor have I entered the discussion. But thanks for dropping by.
I think PoC have fatigue. And if you are a WoC you are doubled down to it. Sometimes Black people need to step off the front line of dealing with oppression and then being “required” to explain to defensive white people how they benefit from our oppression is too much. When there are books, articles, podcasts whole libraries of information. It’s like requiring someone to tell you a story instead of reading a book. Can you empathize with all you are asking a PoC do when you ask that they nicely and politely unpack their pain, to you, on demand?. That is the point of the#Askawhitefeminist so that we don’t have to deal with the cultural divide and be accused of starting a racewar wehn we critique someones remarks.
Interesting how you fail to include any mention of your accusing Elon of attempting to start a race war. Would you like to invoke the Holocaust once more as a defense of your nonsense?
God forbid white people not feel welcomed on a show that talks about racism.
Not trying to stoke the flames, but if you didn’t know that WoC have issues that white women don’t have, then you don’t really have a fast understanding of third-wave feminism. I admire you for debating, but if you’ve “never considered color as part of being a feminist,” then you’ve missed out on the last 40 years of feminism.
That’s the thing that drives me crazy about people who say things like “never considered color as part of being a feminist” or “don’t pay attention to the race of an author” like it’s some form of enlightened thinking. That’s EXACTLY what privilege is. Not having to concern yourself with those things on a personal level because your voice is already widely represented.
Boom! Seriously, these baby feminists need to know their history. Feminism didn’t start with WOC in mind. It started so white women could vote. That’s a fact.
Denying white privilege. *So Brave*